I don't know enough about the history of this area. Every time I read about it, it appears more complicated. The one thing I do know is that slaughtering people while they just live their lives peacefully is beyond understanding. I have trouble deciding whether to kill a spider or take it outside. I can't imagine hurting another person. That said, defending yourself, your family and your country is essential. It sounds almost silly but seems to me "do unto others" applies in almost any situation in life. So simple and basic.
Is revenge the word we're looking for? Absolutely there is no defense for terrorism, and justice- and self defense- requires a robust response. When we use the language of "revenge" though it makes me worry that something beyond justice might happen. Already, more and more innocent lives are being lost, and I think justice would take into the calculus minimizing that, revenge would not. I am sickened by the attacks and very worried about the aftermath; I fear this is going to get much worse.
I wish we could help the Palestinians reach hopefulness instead of despair and help the Israelis feel safety instead of fear of their neighbors. If only we could send more diplomacy instead of more bombs.
I am absolutely horrified by the accounts of what happened in Israel. But the response of the Israelis (who are supposed to be the adults in the room) is so lacking in creativity and concern for Palestinians that I feel utterly hopeless.
We have recent experience with the politics of rage and revenge. Was the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq a success? Did we end terrorism?
Your eloquent description of the landscape and the seeming timelessness of the inhabited communities points to alternative points of view. Some of those landscapes have been forcibly taken from people whose families have centuries of “occupation” of patches of land that are now “settlements” occupied by “settlers” like our own western “pioneers” “settling” the landscapes of America. When the language we use to describe the place, the people, their actions and motivations is so twisted it is an indication that something very wrong is and has been going on for a long time.
The question, what is the alternative, is a good one. I believe there is a simple alternative that we did not turn to after the attacks of 9/11, seeking justice rather than revenge. Just action requires us to see the attacks as crimes and react to them as such. When a crime is committed, even a heinous one, we do not (ordinarily) bomb the presumed perpetrators and innocent bystanders indiscriminately. The MOVE bombing by police in Philadelphia is a good counter example.
Those among Hamas who are likely guilty of knowledge, planning, and action in the attacks are a very small minority in Gaza and among the Palestinians. What we are seeing already amounts to collective punishment which is a crime in itself. Perpetrating crimes to punish crimes becomes a Mobius loop of death, destruction, and despair. If we use Afghanistan after 9/11 as our example we see that the end our intervention provided were a people so poor and desperate that they sell kidneys or even a child in order to feed their other children. Even as the events in Gaza were happening an earthquake killed perhaps 2,000 mostly women and children in Afghanistan - largely because women were not at work, children were not in school while men were out working. Surviving women can’t even seek aid without a male relative to escort them.
My alternative would be to engage all the players in the region and even worldwide in a process of finding an enforced path toward peace. Such a plan would require people and governments on all sides setting their outrage and desire for revenge aside. It would require finding amnesties small and large just to get major players to the table. We would need to sit at the same table with Iran, with various Palestinian and Arab representatives, and with the Israelis. If some refuse we must find political and economic leverage to bring them to talks - especially if they are our allies. Such a response would allow the possibility of engaged players on the Palestinian side - the ones with the best knowledge - fingering the likely guilty parties so they could be put on trial. Perhaps we would have to consider that some of our leaders might have to answer for war crimes as well. So be it.
There will be no bullet, no bomb, no assassination of a leader that will end this. Force is not a valid alternative.
"Just action requires us to see the attacks as crimes and react to them as such. When a crime is committed, even a heinous one, we do not (ordinarily) bomb the presumed perpetrators and innocent bystanders indiscriminately. The MOVE bombing by police in Philadelphia is a good counter example."
Thanks for the thoughtful response. The invasion of Afghanistan became a fiasco, but it wasn't destined to be one, I don't think. I thought warning the Taliban to turn over the Al-Qaeda leaders, as George W. Bush did, then invading when they refused, with the express purpose of tracking down Al-Qaeda, was the right thing to do. It all went wrong, and of course, the invasion of Iraq had no justification and was a fiasco from beginning to end. The first Gulf war, intended to drive Iraqi forces out of Kuwait, was a modest success, I think, and an example of a forceful (violent) response working. George H. W. Bush set a limited objective and, with the help of a large coalition, stuck to it. Once we had driven Al-Qaeda into the hills in Afghanistan, we should have largely withdrawn and made the effort to get Osama bin Laden and his followers a police action, as you suggest. Hamas has intentionally dug itself in among the the civilians in Gaza, using Israel's sensitivity to human rights abuses against it. Many peace efforts have been made over the years, with many international partners, but all have failed and gradually, the oppression of the Palestinians has worsened as Israel has responded to acts of terrorism. Israel has allowed illegal settlements, a constant provocation, and the Palestinians have tolerated terrorism from within their ranks. I do not believe your suggestions for talks would have worked, although there might be a chance for something like that working after the current destruction is finished.
I must disagree about Afghanistan. Our intervention there was doomed from the start because we did not line up all the necessary players for 1) the diplomatic effort to push the Taliban to turn bin Laden over, 2) to secure his capture. I have some personal family experience in this as my grandmother died in Peshawar during the time Tora Bora was assaulted and the Pakistan border was closed. Family crossed the border from Pakistan to bury her in the family graveyard and returned the same day. They were told by Pakistani security at the border that the border was closed and they must return to Kabul. They drove a few miles up the road and took a mountain road around the border checkpoint and were in Peshawar agains that evening. Effective military intervention requires effective partners.
The 1st Gulf War is a good example of well considered use of force when there is a breakdown of diplomatic effort. The plan had achievable objectives and brought forward overwhelming military force which in turn achieved the goals quickly with minimal loss of life. Then we withdrew leaving an effective no-fly zone.
While there have been numerous attempts at finding peace in Palestine/Israel I believe that is the problem. Despite some efforts at peace having greater numbers of nations attached to the effort none of the sets of talks have brought all the necessary players to the room at the same time and nearly every time talks ended indecisively. Even major breakthroughs did not spur further effort at greater gains. The parties walked away and the gains made often slipped like sand between fingers. Meanwhile parties who believed it was not in their interest to achieve peace got to work eroding progress.
The endless cycle of violence was entirely predictable from the beginning as the creation of the state of Israel was perhaps the final colonial act of world colonial powers as they (for the most part) divested themselves of their empires. The divisions of the Cold War have played out ever since in the politics surrounding Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, numerous African conflicts, the Ukraine war … If we continue the mindset that we have we lose world credibility. Already China (along with Egypt) has entered with a proposal for finding diplomatic resolution. That should have been our role, but when great nations seek peace talks - even if they are hoping to alter the balance of political power - we should all embrace it.
Iran must be included, and there is a small bit of hope here, in that the CIA has finally admitted its role in the overthrow of the rightful leader of Iran in 1953. Iran has rejected the announcement as trivial but it is a step which could be followed with another. We must consider that the Obama administration was taking steps to build relations with Iran only to be broken by the Trump administration. With the ongoing proxy war in Yemen between Iran and the Saudis, then with the Trump/Kershner agenda of supporting the religious right in Israel (and the US) and working to bring the Saudis and Israel together it does not take a genius to understand Iran would be very uncomfortable - especially as the US has never walked back the Axis of Evil speech of GWB.
There are many players and each has legitimate grievances. The whole peace cannot be achieved without addressing all grievances.
And so, again, I cannot believe that any sort of real and sustained peace can be achieved when criminal actions are met with military force rather than concerted and certain rule of law.
True. Israeli should get revenge against Hamas. It has to be measured though against those terrorists only. Many of the Palestinian citizens don't want them either but they should have organized against them long ago to suppress their violence against Israel.
I used to think the same thing when some awful fringe group in some other country seemed bound and determined to ruin everything for everybody over their particular grievance: Why don’t the regular people there do something about it? Then it happened here in the US with Trumpism, and I learned firsthand that it’s not so simple. If it’s only a few miscreants, maybe they can be dealt with, but when it’s a full blown cult, with true believers, hangers on, and masses of propaganda, then all bets are off. And if they have guns and are willing to use them…
I don’t know why you think liberals are defending Hamas. There are a very small number of self described radicals who do & IMHO are actually closer politically to Putin & Trump. Overwhelmingly liberals and progressives are vehemently opposed to Hamas, massacre. And we also oppose Israel’s apartheid. Perhaps you’ve been listening to Republicans (whose party has ties to Putin, Hamas’ ally) who are lying as they often do, to promote hatred of liberals.
Jill Stein and Ralph Nader are where you’d expect them to be on this. They’re not liberals or Democrats. And yes, I’m sure, despite how pro-peace they are, have excuses for Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
Elected Dems are much more unified on being pro-democracy than Republicans. That’s most certainly to include in this country.
There's been quite a lot of coverage of not only pro-Palestinian but Pro-Hamas activity on college campuses. A long list of student organizations at Harvard signed a letter right after the massacre blaming the violence perpetrated by Hamas on Israel.
The Likud Party - and therefore Israel - has been enacting an ethnic cleansing in slow motion for
70 years . If what you seek - revenge- makes sense, why does it apply to one side and not the other? If mindlessly killing innocents is good for Israel then your arguments justify the ghastly deeds of Hamas as well. If escalation makes sense then you’ve justified an equal and even more destructive response from the Arab League. The extermination of the Native American people operated on much the same principles. Evacuation of 1 million people in 24 hours is a ghastly war crime reminiscent of the Trail of Tears.
Revenge is what we did after 9/11. And, of course, our President, George W. Bush, played right into the hands of Osama bin Laden, not capturing *him* in Bora Bora, and then seeking retribution by attacking his enemy, Saddam Hussein.
Neither of these offers much comfort. But they highlight information, and good thinking. I believe these sources are followed by people with much more influence on events than I have. I'm so thankful that Joe Biden is our President, and his administration is staffed by people both "young" (I'm 74) and experienced.
I'm taking my Middle East news in small doses. And finding real satisfaction in acting normally -- maybe a bit "super" normally. I'm determined not to give in to despair. The despair and sadness and disgust is there. But *in spite* of those feelings I'm still gonna function, maybe better than ever, at my chosen tasks. (GOTV, election reform in NYS, helping family and friends with ordinary-extraordinary issues.)
I read all 12 of the comments preceding mine so as not to repeat. Most all decry the use of the word "revenge" and the actions it points to. Revenge is not a human characteristic which contributes to a better world or a better humanity. Haven't we, in the USA as a nation, learned that truth following our recent several vengeful forays into war?
Compassion is what we all need to learn and promote and practice. I view these atrocities in Israel and Gaza (or you might say, in the ancient Palestine) from a somewhat unique position. In 1972 I was present in the Lod Airport when the "Black September" (who they were and who they were sponsored by is contested) terrorists shot up the arrivals area of the airport and killed
somehow I accidentally posted the below while I was tryin to edit and finish it. I was trying to post a link. Wikipedia and most sources nowadays attribute the Lod Massacre to the PFLP and the Red Army in Japan, which I was trying to add to my commentary. So, here is the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lod_Airport_massacre
It is a very complicated, multi-national operation. However, my point is that the Lod Massacre was 51 years ago. Most of the victims were Puerto Rican citizens traveling to the Holy Land on pilgrimage to visit the Christian Holy sites. Violence and hate kill indiscriminately. My mother and I were not part of any group; we were there to visit my sister, her husband, and my niece., who was a baby. We were arriving on the El Al plane mentioned in the Wikipedia article. We, and other passengers were forced to crawl into the bathrooms to avoid the bullets. Thankfully, we were not injured. We were directed to stay there for what seemed like hours while bodies were secured and the remaining terrorist who was not killed was caught. Finally, we were ushered into buses to be taken to a drop off point where we could be picked up by my sister's husband. When we finally went outside to the bus that the Israeli authorities directed us to, we could not find a seat that was not covered with blood. All vehicles, buses, taxis, etc had already been used earlier to transport injured persons to hospitals. On the way to the bus we saw a mother bleeding and crying, holding a baby covered in her own blood; the baby was not injured, but the mother was. We saw the body of one of the terrorists who had been killed. We had to leave our luggage and lost our passports as we were checking in to the country when the shooting started. We really did not know what happened until we were later able to see the news on television in my sister's living room to know that it was perpetrated by Japanese Red Army terrorists.
We had to go back the next day to get our luggage and our passports. My mom had lost her glasses and her elbow was chipped when we were knocked to the ground. When we walked into the area where people pass through to enter the country I observed that the glass wall that had been there when we had disembarked from the plane and entered the building, was gone. I started to shake all over, violently. I shake now, as I write this. The official who handed my my passport said I needed to be tough if I was going to stay in Israel. It has been 51 years. I did not then, and I do not now bear any hatred or animosity toward the Palestinians. They are victims of the hardened hearts of greedy people. There are innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians. This vengefulness has gone on for 75 years, since the inception of the state of Israel. It will not go away until Palestinians are given rights as humans. We cannot keep taking their lands away and then blaming them for the horrors perpetrated in their names. Governments and men of power need to look into their hearts and into those sacred lands and make choices that provide security, compassion, and love for both the Palestinians and the Jewish people who want a homeland. But, the truth is certain, the Palestinians need homes and a homeland. It is time to stop the excuses that killing in the name of one or another group is a just and righteous thing to do. It is never right and just to kill.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend," an ancient proverb and mantra for eons within many Middle East countries, suggests that two entities can or should work together against a common enemy. And so, the inhumane battles over the past 2000+ years, whether for water, oil, land, human trafficking or other "resources," under the umbrellas of religious holy and unholy wars, persisted. But the Holocaust of the 1930's and 40's, with the systematic murders of 6 million Jewish people and anyone who tried to save them, clearly showed the intent to erase an entire ethnic race of non-warring human beings. Their only "crime" was being born Jewish.
We can no longer tell who the "good guys and bad guys" are...in other countries or our own. Idealogical schisms abound, based on phony religious assertions or massive Greed. Whether it's within our own Congress and military forces infiltrated by white supremicists and neo-Nazis, or treasonists and co-conspirators within the tRump Cult who thrive on chaos like their ego-maniac psychopath ex-Prez...the enemy is home-grown now. And the cowardice of the Silent Elected Bystanders in county, state, and national levels is just as damaging to our country's security as tRump, Putin, the Krazy Korean, and countless other dictators around the world. Silence is compliance.
I witnessed and learned about the brutality of war in caring for combat-wounded medevac patients during the Vietnam War, and listening to the stories of combat vets from WWII up till the Gulf War throughout my career as a Navy nurse, and then as a hospice nurse to many war veterans. But it was the visit I made to Dachau concentration camp in Germany in 1972 that changed me forever. And when I moved back here to my home town 21 years ago and met with Mr. Abe Rudnick to see if I could rent one of his apts. in Queensbury Gardens, I experienced a more seismic shift when he told me he had been imprisoned in that same Dachau camp at the age of 16. And that his wife Clara was a Holocaust survivor also, having been imprisoned at the age of 15, after her entire family was murdered by the Nazis. Their personal stories of that horrific era in our world history are etched in my soul.
Now 99 yrs. old, Clara is as mentally sharp and introspective as ever, but that blessing has become a burden since last weekend, with exposure to the news blasts and live scenes of death and destruction in Israel. No Holocaust survivor should ever have to witness a repeat of the horrors they once experienced which still haunt their dreams and awake times. PTSD isn't just a bunch of letters thrown together...it's real...even 80 + years later.
Now widowed, Clara is the most courageous and resilient person I've ever known, still so proud to be an American, a true patriot who is beloved by her devoted son and his wife and Clara's wonderful grandson and grand daughter, and countless others of us in the North Country who have been privileged to learn from all of Clara's life experiences. Her only question in our visits this past week has been..."Why do people still hate us Jews so much...?" All I can do is hug her and love her and keep listening and learning from her courage and hope.
I don't know enough about the history of this area. Every time I read about it, it appears more complicated. The one thing I do know is that slaughtering people while they just live their lives peacefully is beyond understanding. I have trouble deciding whether to kill a spider or take it outside. I can't imagine hurting another person. That said, defending yourself, your family and your country is essential. It sounds almost silly but seems to me "do unto others" applies in almost any situation in life. So simple and basic.
Is revenge the word we're looking for? Absolutely there is no defense for terrorism, and justice- and self defense- requires a robust response. When we use the language of "revenge" though it makes me worry that something beyond justice might happen. Already, more and more innocent lives are being lost, and I think justice would take into the calculus minimizing that, revenge would not. I am sickened by the attacks and very worried about the aftermath; I fear this is going to get much worse.
The terrorists win when we play into their hands. The cruelty of Hamas slaughtering innocent Israelis cannot be forgiven, nor can the mistreatment of the innocent Palestinians by the Israeli government. Timothy Snyder has a thoughtful take on the living hell that is the Middle East: https://open.substack.com/pub/snyder/p/terror-and-counter-terror?r=y09t&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
You beat me to it! I agree that Tim Snyder's comments are very helpful in these trying times.
The sad truth is, forgiveness on the part of both sides is the only the only way this endless cycle of hatred and revenge will ever end.
I wish we could help the Palestinians reach hopefulness instead of despair and help the Israelis feel safety instead of fear of their neighbors. If only we could send more diplomacy instead of more bombs.
I am absolutely horrified by the accounts of what happened in Israel. But the response of the Israelis (who are supposed to be the adults in the room) is so lacking in creativity and concern for Palestinians that I feel utterly hopeless.
We have recent experience with the politics of rage and revenge. Was the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq a success? Did we end terrorism?
Your eloquent description of the landscape and the seeming timelessness of the inhabited communities points to alternative points of view. Some of those landscapes have been forcibly taken from people whose families have centuries of “occupation” of patches of land that are now “settlements” occupied by “settlers” like our own western “pioneers” “settling” the landscapes of America. When the language we use to describe the place, the people, their actions and motivations is so twisted it is an indication that something very wrong is and has been going on for a long time.
The question, what is the alternative, is a good one. I believe there is a simple alternative that we did not turn to after the attacks of 9/11, seeking justice rather than revenge. Just action requires us to see the attacks as crimes and react to them as such. When a crime is committed, even a heinous one, we do not (ordinarily) bomb the presumed perpetrators and innocent bystanders indiscriminately. The MOVE bombing by police in Philadelphia is a good counter example.
Those among Hamas who are likely guilty of knowledge, planning, and action in the attacks are a very small minority in Gaza and among the Palestinians. What we are seeing already amounts to collective punishment which is a crime in itself. Perpetrating crimes to punish crimes becomes a Mobius loop of death, destruction, and despair. If we use Afghanistan after 9/11 as our example we see that the end our intervention provided were a people so poor and desperate that they sell kidneys or even a child in order to feed their other children. Even as the events in Gaza were happening an earthquake killed perhaps 2,000 mostly women and children in Afghanistan - largely because women were not at work, children were not in school while men were out working. Surviving women can’t even seek aid without a male relative to escort them.
My alternative would be to engage all the players in the region and even worldwide in a process of finding an enforced path toward peace. Such a plan would require people and governments on all sides setting their outrage and desire for revenge aside. It would require finding amnesties small and large just to get major players to the table. We would need to sit at the same table with Iran, with various Palestinian and Arab representatives, and with the Israelis. If some refuse we must find political and economic leverage to bring them to talks - especially if they are our allies. Such a response would allow the possibility of engaged players on the Palestinian side - the ones with the best knowledge - fingering the likely guilty parties so they could be put on trial. Perhaps we would have to consider that some of our leaders might have to answer for war crimes as well. So be it.
There will be no bullet, no bomb, no assassination of a leader that will end this. Force is not a valid alternative.
Seek justice rather than revenge. Yes!
"Just action requires us to see the attacks as crimes and react to them as such. When a crime is committed, even a heinous one, we do not (ordinarily) bomb the presumed perpetrators and innocent bystanders indiscriminately. The MOVE bombing by police in Philadelphia is a good counter example."
Thanks for the thoughtful response. The invasion of Afghanistan became a fiasco, but it wasn't destined to be one, I don't think. I thought warning the Taliban to turn over the Al-Qaeda leaders, as George W. Bush did, then invading when they refused, with the express purpose of tracking down Al-Qaeda, was the right thing to do. It all went wrong, and of course, the invasion of Iraq had no justification and was a fiasco from beginning to end. The first Gulf war, intended to drive Iraqi forces out of Kuwait, was a modest success, I think, and an example of a forceful (violent) response working. George H. W. Bush set a limited objective and, with the help of a large coalition, stuck to it. Once we had driven Al-Qaeda into the hills in Afghanistan, we should have largely withdrawn and made the effort to get Osama bin Laden and his followers a police action, as you suggest. Hamas has intentionally dug itself in among the the civilians in Gaza, using Israel's sensitivity to human rights abuses against it. Many peace efforts have been made over the years, with many international partners, but all have failed and gradually, the oppression of the Palestinians has worsened as Israel has responded to acts of terrorism. Israel has allowed illegal settlements, a constant provocation, and the Palestinians have tolerated terrorism from within their ranks. I do not believe your suggestions for talks would have worked, although there might be a chance for something like that working after the current destruction is finished.
I must disagree about Afghanistan. Our intervention there was doomed from the start because we did not line up all the necessary players for 1) the diplomatic effort to push the Taliban to turn bin Laden over, 2) to secure his capture. I have some personal family experience in this as my grandmother died in Peshawar during the time Tora Bora was assaulted and the Pakistan border was closed. Family crossed the border from Pakistan to bury her in the family graveyard and returned the same day. They were told by Pakistani security at the border that the border was closed and they must return to Kabul. They drove a few miles up the road and took a mountain road around the border checkpoint and were in Peshawar agains that evening. Effective military intervention requires effective partners.
The 1st Gulf War is a good example of well considered use of force when there is a breakdown of diplomatic effort. The plan had achievable objectives and brought forward overwhelming military force which in turn achieved the goals quickly with minimal loss of life. Then we withdrew leaving an effective no-fly zone.
While there have been numerous attempts at finding peace in Palestine/Israel I believe that is the problem. Despite some efforts at peace having greater numbers of nations attached to the effort none of the sets of talks have brought all the necessary players to the room at the same time and nearly every time talks ended indecisively. Even major breakthroughs did not spur further effort at greater gains. The parties walked away and the gains made often slipped like sand between fingers. Meanwhile parties who believed it was not in their interest to achieve peace got to work eroding progress.
The endless cycle of violence was entirely predictable from the beginning as the creation of the state of Israel was perhaps the final colonial act of world colonial powers as they (for the most part) divested themselves of their empires. The divisions of the Cold War have played out ever since in the politics surrounding Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, numerous African conflicts, the Ukraine war … If we continue the mindset that we have we lose world credibility. Already China (along with Egypt) has entered with a proposal for finding diplomatic resolution. That should have been our role, but when great nations seek peace talks - even if they are hoping to alter the balance of political power - we should all embrace it.
Iran must be included, and there is a small bit of hope here, in that the CIA has finally admitted its role in the overthrow of the rightful leader of Iran in 1953. Iran has rejected the announcement as trivial but it is a step which could be followed with another. We must consider that the Obama administration was taking steps to build relations with Iran only to be broken by the Trump administration. With the ongoing proxy war in Yemen between Iran and the Saudis, then with the Trump/Kershner agenda of supporting the religious right in Israel (and the US) and working to bring the Saudis and Israel together it does not take a genius to understand Iran would be very uncomfortable - especially as the US has never walked back the Axis of Evil speech of GWB.
There are many players and each has legitimate grievances. The whole peace cannot be achieved without addressing all grievances.
And so, again, I cannot believe that any sort of real and sustained peace can be achieved when criminal actions are met with military force rather than concerted and certain rule of law.
True. Israeli should get revenge against Hamas. It has to be measured though against those terrorists only. Many of the Palestinian citizens don't want them either but they should have organized against them long ago to suppress their violence against Israel.
I used to think the same thing when some awful fringe group in some other country seemed bound and determined to ruin everything for everybody over their particular grievance: Why don’t the regular people there do something about it? Then it happened here in the US with Trumpism, and I learned firsthand that it’s not so simple. If it’s only a few miscreants, maybe they can be dealt with, but when it’s a full blown cult, with true believers, hangers on, and masses of propaganda, then all bets are off. And if they have guns and are willing to use them…
True statement.
I don’t know why you think liberals are defending Hamas. There are a very small number of self described radicals who do & IMHO are actually closer politically to Putin & Trump. Overwhelmingly liberals and progressives are vehemently opposed to Hamas, massacre. And we also oppose Israel’s apartheid. Perhaps you’ve been listening to Republicans (whose party has ties to Putin, Hamas’ ally) who are lying as they often do, to promote hatred of liberals.
Don’t fall for their BS.
FYI, my take:
https://www.facebook.com/1383772234/posts/pfbid02rkMDWDS5cAuazSjj5MCPVwei1YFHAS9nBLA1xD6219oqAYA4KgkTXcLdndRL2rcGl/?mibextid=cr9u03
Jill Stein and Ralph Nader are where you’d expect them to be on this. They’re not liberals or Democrats. And yes, I’m sure, despite how pro-peace they are, have excuses for Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
Elected Dems are much more unified on being pro-democracy than Republicans. That’s most certainly to include in this country.
I agree with you.
There's been quite a lot of coverage of not only pro-Palestinian but Pro-Hamas activity on college campuses. A long list of student organizations at Harvard signed a letter right after the massacre blaming the violence perpetrated by Hamas on Israel.
The Likud Party - and therefore Israel - has been enacting an ethnic cleansing in slow motion for
70 years . If what you seek - revenge- makes sense, why does it apply to one side and not the other? If mindlessly killing innocents is good for Israel then your arguments justify the ghastly deeds of Hamas as well. If escalation makes sense then you’ve justified an equal and even more destructive response from the Arab League. The extermination of the Native American people operated on much the same principles. Evacuation of 1 million people in 24 hours is a ghastly war crime reminiscent of the Trail of Tears.
Revenge is what we did after 9/11. And, of course, our President, George W. Bush, played right into the hands of Osama bin Laden, not capturing *him* in Bora Bora, and then seeking retribution by attacking his enemy, Saddam Hussein.
So, yes, it is horror heaped on horror.
I was, well, not comforted, but informed, by Tim Snyder's substack item "Terror and counter-terror" (see https://snyder.substack.com/p/terror-and-counter-terror).
I was also informed by Ryan MacBeth's substack video "Inside the HAMAS Operations Order from Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" (see https://ryanmcbeth.substack.com/p/inside-the-hamas-operations-order).
Neither of these offers much comfort. But they highlight information, and good thinking. I believe these sources are followed by people with much more influence on events than I have. I'm so thankful that Joe Biden is our President, and his administration is staffed by people both "young" (I'm 74) and experienced.
I'm taking my Middle East news in small doses. And finding real satisfaction in acting normally -- maybe a bit "super" normally. I'm determined not to give in to despair. The despair and sadness and disgust is there. But *in spite* of those feelings I'm still gonna function, maybe better than ever, at my chosen tasks. (GOTV, election reform in NYS, helping family and friends with ordinary-extraordinary issues.)
I read all 12 of the comments preceding mine so as not to repeat. Most all decry the use of the word "revenge" and the actions it points to. Revenge is not a human characteristic which contributes to a better world or a better humanity. Haven't we, in the USA as a nation, learned that truth following our recent several vengeful forays into war?
Compassion is what we all need to learn and promote and practice. I view these atrocities in Israel and Gaza (or you might say, in the ancient Palestine) from a somewhat unique position. In 1972 I was present in the Lod Airport when the "Black September" (who they were and who they were sponsored by is contested) terrorists shot up the arrivals area of the airport and killed
somehow I accidentally posted the below while I was tryin to edit and finish it. I was trying to post a link. Wikipedia and most sources nowadays attribute the Lod Massacre to the PFLP and the Red Army in Japan, which I was trying to add to my commentary. So, here is the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lod_Airport_massacre
It is a very complicated, multi-national operation. However, my point is that the Lod Massacre was 51 years ago. Most of the victims were Puerto Rican citizens traveling to the Holy Land on pilgrimage to visit the Christian Holy sites. Violence and hate kill indiscriminately. My mother and I were not part of any group; we were there to visit my sister, her husband, and my niece., who was a baby. We were arriving on the El Al plane mentioned in the Wikipedia article. We, and other passengers were forced to crawl into the bathrooms to avoid the bullets. Thankfully, we were not injured. We were directed to stay there for what seemed like hours while bodies were secured and the remaining terrorist who was not killed was caught. Finally, we were ushered into buses to be taken to a drop off point where we could be picked up by my sister's husband. When we finally went outside to the bus that the Israeli authorities directed us to, we could not find a seat that was not covered with blood. All vehicles, buses, taxis, etc had already been used earlier to transport injured persons to hospitals. On the way to the bus we saw a mother bleeding and crying, holding a baby covered in her own blood; the baby was not injured, but the mother was. We saw the body of one of the terrorists who had been killed. We had to leave our luggage and lost our passports as we were checking in to the country when the shooting started. We really did not know what happened until we were later able to see the news on television in my sister's living room to know that it was perpetrated by Japanese Red Army terrorists.
We had to go back the next day to get our luggage and our passports. My mom had lost her glasses and her elbow was chipped when we were knocked to the ground. When we walked into the area where people pass through to enter the country I observed that the glass wall that had been there when we had disembarked from the plane and entered the building, was gone. I started to shake all over, violently. I shake now, as I write this. The official who handed my my passport said I needed to be tough if I was going to stay in Israel. It has been 51 years. I did not then, and I do not now bear any hatred or animosity toward the Palestinians. They are victims of the hardened hearts of greedy people. There are innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians. This vengefulness has gone on for 75 years, since the inception of the state of Israel. It will not go away until Palestinians are given rights as humans. We cannot keep taking their lands away and then blaming them for the horrors perpetrated in their names. Governments and men of power need to look into their hearts and into those sacred lands and make choices that provide security, compassion, and love for both the Palestinians and the Jewish people who want a homeland. But, the truth is certain, the Palestinians need homes and a homeland. It is time to stop the excuses that killing in the name of one or another group is a just and righteous thing to do. It is never right and just to kill.
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”
Gandhi
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend," an ancient proverb and mantra for eons within many Middle East countries, suggests that two entities can or should work together against a common enemy. And so, the inhumane battles over the past 2000+ years, whether for water, oil, land, human trafficking or other "resources," under the umbrellas of religious holy and unholy wars, persisted. But the Holocaust of the 1930's and 40's, with the systematic murders of 6 million Jewish people and anyone who tried to save them, clearly showed the intent to erase an entire ethnic race of non-warring human beings. Their only "crime" was being born Jewish.
We can no longer tell who the "good guys and bad guys" are...in other countries or our own. Idealogical schisms abound, based on phony religious assertions or massive Greed. Whether it's within our own Congress and military forces infiltrated by white supremicists and neo-Nazis, or treasonists and co-conspirators within the tRump Cult who thrive on chaos like their ego-maniac psychopath ex-Prez...the enemy is home-grown now. And the cowardice of the Silent Elected Bystanders in county, state, and national levels is just as damaging to our country's security as tRump, Putin, the Krazy Korean, and countless other dictators around the world. Silence is compliance.
I witnessed and learned about the brutality of war in caring for combat-wounded medevac patients during the Vietnam War, and listening to the stories of combat vets from WWII up till the Gulf War throughout my career as a Navy nurse, and then as a hospice nurse to many war veterans. But it was the visit I made to Dachau concentration camp in Germany in 1972 that changed me forever. And when I moved back here to my home town 21 years ago and met with Mr. Abe Rudnick to see if I could rent one of his apts. in Queensbury Gardens, I experienced a more seismic shift when he told me he had been imprisoned in that same Dachau camp at the age of 16. And that his wife Clara was a Holocaust survivor also, having been imprisoned at the age of 15, after her entire family was murdered by the Nazis. Their personal stories of that horrific era in our world history are etched in my soul.
Now 99 yrs. old, Clara is as mentally sharp and introspective as ever, but that blessing has become a burden since last weekend, with exposure to the news blasts and live scenes of death and destruction in Israel. No Holocaust survivor should ever have to witness a repeat of the horrors they once experienced which still haunt their dreams and awake times. PTSD isn't just a bunch of letters thrown together...it's real...even 80 + years later.
Now widowed, Clara is the most courageous and resilient person I've ever known, still so proud to be an American, a true patriot who is beloved by her devoted son and his wife and Clara's wonderful grandson and grand daughter, and countless others of us in the North Country who have been privileged to learn from all of Clara's life experiences. Her only question in our visits this past week has been..."Why do people still hate us Jews so much...?" All I can do is hug her and love her and keep listening and learning from her courage and hope.
I feel for the victims on both sides. And I don’t think it will ever end.