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Al Bellenchia's avatar

Spot on, Ken about our horrific prison/corrections system. It has long needed reform, but the law-and-order types will never allow rational discussion of reforms.

And agreed: The NPS is one of our nation’s greatest achievements. A crown jewel.

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Edward Low's avatar

Ironically, I think you could look at prisons and NPS and realize

You do something right (treat people/environrment with decency and respect) and 95% (on both sides) are happy

You treat the world as your enemy, withOUT decency and respect and 95% are UNhappy

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Ken Tingley's avatar

Interesting connection.

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Ken Tingley's avatar

From my son's experience with NPS, I was shocked by the low pay where he barely cleared $30,000 with a Master's Degree. Lots of talented people there who are very worried about their futures.

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Al Bellenchia's avatar

Yes. I have hired former NPS staff and felt the same when I learned of their compensation.

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Edward Low's avatar

Two years ago I was talking to one of the temp rangers... it was her second year... like your son, she was educated.. and had done extra things like getting her EMT certification... (the person if I EVER needed help, I wanted to help me)..

We talked for a bit..Part about how unsecure those jobs are (we were days from a (yet another) potential government shut down, where she was told she would not be paid and would be sent home

And then she told me if she was to go one mile outside of Bryce Canyon, she would make MORE working at the Subway Restaurant than she made as a temporary Ranger.

Another thing she pointed out... most of the successfully employed rangers are State Rangers, where they aren't overworked and underpaid AND have job security

Honestly... the one thing a government job offered a person, was (not pay or working conditions, but) job security. under hmpy trmPEDO (well really fELON) security is no longer a given.. I am betting a LOT of government workers are now looking for the security of a Subway Sub shop job

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Irene Baldwin's avatar

I think if a position is so vital to public order and public safety in NYS that it is subject to the Taylor Law, then compensation should never be an issue and we should try and give them the best working conditions possible. My husband is a retired NYC transit worker , he was a diesel mechanic, maintaining the buses. He went out on strike 3 times during his 25 years; if the union called a strike, it would have been unthinkable for him not to go out....the last strike, he was out a week or two then had to work twice that amount of time without pay for the Taylor Law penalties. My question has always been, if the job is so vital, why not give them their raises?.I feel the same about corrections officers. What a difficult job. Just pay these people and respond to their complaints about conditions.

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mike parwana's avatar

The unions did not call a strike. They are wildcat strikes. It doesn’t seem like pay is a significant issue in causing the strikes

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Edward Low's avatar

Yes.

I agree with the illegal wild strikers in saying contraband should not be brought into prisons.

But if you remember the escape from Dannemora... most of the contraband there was brought in by Correction Officers

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Ken Tingley's avatar

Exactly.

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Ken Tingley's avatar

Although, when you hear the stories of workers forced to work double and triple shifts, well they may just be at the end of their rope.

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mike parwana's avatar

They are at the end of their rope.

By the same token, when it was clear that the scale of the prison system was out of whack with the number of prisoners those on the corrections side opposed every sort of effort to modernize the system and the laws. COs simply wanted more people to be thrown behind bars, seemingly without regard for the people being locked up or the effects on society and our economic system.

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Ken Tingley's avatar

True as well.

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Catherine's avatar

The only thing I know about prisons I learned watching prison movies and I really hope that remains true the rest of my life. I wonder though, if we spent more money paying guards and improving the conditions in the jails for the prisoners, would there be less violence? I think so. Are we rehabbing prisoners or just housing them? I don't understand the system, and I don't think there is an easy answer. I feel for all those involved.

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Edward Low's avatar

In the early 90's prisons in Ray Brook had some education components to them... mainly things like learning to read and writing programs - the first (obviously) gave the prisoners a better chance in society when they served their time and the second gave them a non-violent way to deal with anger.

The (republican) outcry: "need to PUNISH these people(/animals) not help them"

So programs that would have helped lower the recidivism rate and give locals another (small) income source (not to mention treat prisoners like humans) was dropped.

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Ken Tingley's avatar

A few years ago a prison downstate - maybe Sing Sing - had a program where inmates were successfully obtaining college degrees for after their release. When it was publicized in stories, there was a public outcry that inmates were getting a free education that kids in the real world could not afford. These are the issues sometimes.

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Edward Low's avatar

Jon Stewart interviewed a former prisoner who learned to be a firefighter.. and part of it he had fought the California fires for something like dollar an hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Oaj5iQA-w

And Mr. Stewart kind of suggested it wasn't a fair to underpay the guy.. But the guy was saying: "I had better food, better living situations, I made the most you can make in prison" (and he was so happy to have learned a career that he liked).

The interview was interesting because he talked about being shipped to other states... away from his family... (which resonated for me because almost all of those who are incarcerated in Norther New York are not from here.. so for their family to visit them (people who are generally not of means) they have to take buses and cabs to see loved ones for the small visiting time window.

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Elizabeth Hopkins's avatar

I knew a few retired teachers who worked at Raybrook and always admired them for their dedication to this population.

Many prisoners have had pretty tough childhoods and backgrounds I'm sure weren't given higher Ed opportunities. The "correction" helps with giving opportunities- which in turn helps the COs in the long run. It's not sure perfect solution but helps either boredom which can stir violent situations

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Edward Low's avatar

How sad is it... that you have had a horrible (often violent) childhood, with lots of abuse... and now you are in prison.. and what do you see: more violence and abuse....

But wait, there is a program that gives you a ray (in RAYbrook no less ;-) hope and there is out cry... "f-those bastards...."

Lake Placid elementary had a program where the prisoners could read books (recorded), and that was played to the students (to be clear, neither group had any contact) The principal told me it was often the only time the children had heard an authentic voice to some ethnic books.

But the program humanized people.. not to mention often the prisoners were reading... something they had learn to do in prison...

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W Tucker's avatar

Hello Elizabeth the following is an interesting article https://www.adirondacklife.com/2012/10/11/banished/ written by someone that did a bit of time at Ray Brook

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Ken Tingley's avatar

I think you hit on the problem - warehousing vs. rehabbing. If you look at some of the institutions, it is all about getting the purpose back to being a useful member of society. Here it is more about punishment and the worse the better.

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Edward Low's avatar

And as you likely know... the fact that we are wisely reforming bail laws so non-violent criminals aren't incarcerated... those who are in prison are the most violent, but also the most in need of a need for a leg up.

Add to this.. the good... a guy isn't losing his job because he can't pay his fine and is sitting in jail, learning about crimes from someone who lots of experience... Not to mention that same guy is going to be subjected to potential violence

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Barbara Bubar's avatar

I think Denmark was shown on 60 Minutes some time ago about their prison system and I just looked up Denmark's arrangement and found this current piece:

https://denmarkexpat.com/prisons-in-denmark/

Could we ever get to something even a little like this.....I wish......

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Ken Tingley's avatar

That was definitely the piece I was thinking about.

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mike parwana's avatar

From the posts I’ve seen by CO’s and their families on social media, working conditions are the most visceral issue, along with opposition to the HALT Act. I don’t know much about the HALT Act except that it was meant to be a protection against overly harsh punishment within the walls.

I have seen documents posted about forced overtime. CO’s were being forced to work triple shifts or more. People who had already worked 16 hours were told at the end of their shift to work another. Word of mouth tells of people who worked 48 hours or more in a row. Presumably these people are given opportunity to sleep some amount during those shifts but I believe the reports are mostly reliable.

Still, there is an irony in that the striking guards ARE breaking the law and only recently did the Governor begin firing people. Yet at the same time federal workers going to their jobs are being fired for no cause whatsoever. Representatives like Stefanik and Stec stand firmly with the prison guards defying the law and their own unions, but not a word about federal workers being fired for no reason.

And a further irony is that several prisons have been closed in recent years. Many guards were displaced from jobs. One might think that there shouldn’t be a situation where workers would be forced to work triple shifts, or even double shifts.

It feels like people do not want to resolve problems. I suspect we are in for a lot more of this.

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Edward Low's avatar

HALT: you point out many of the ironies of those who are against it and support Correction Officers and unions (on a whim, I would say) like pos_tfnKKK and stec-ickkk. The hypocrisy is how it is nothing but grandstanding, neither has tried to protect unions in genera, let alone try to bring well paying jobs to their districts. Neither tried to enact laws that would provide support for prison improvements... (the are the queen and king of meaningless penpal-ing. (as soon as Great Meadows closed, but were silent about prisons, until this latest situation)

{{gQp is known for exasperating a problem over trying to find solutions.}}

SAFE Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NY_SAFE_Act ): HALT reminds me of the SAFE act when you ask people people about either and why they may dislike it.. there answers are very telling: basically don't like democrats...

True story: I asked a couple guys (always men dis like limiting guys.. which tracts because it is usually a woman who is at the wrong end of a gun) why they didn't like the SAFE Act:

ª (Sheepishly) "well when I am on the range.. I like to have a 50 round magazine so I don't have to reload... (pause and a smile) I guess I am lazy."

ª "It's a start and it only is going to get worse.... and worse"

from what I can see the first was just lazy man problems and the second never came true, but being afraid is the salient point for mean when it comes to being a gun owner.

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Edward Low's avatar

Impeach judges, I guess we should start with all three of the recent republican partisans who lied under oath during their confirmation hearings...

=========

Looks like one of the good things the illegally striking prison guards did was to show everyone how bad their discussions are and how poorly prisoners are treated.

Let's move on to "how humans are treated" We witness how if you treat people inhumanely they will act out.

This is true in Prisons, it is true in Gaza..

and while you can say there is no excuse for vile behavior (like throwing feces.. like a monkey locked in a zoo (animal prison), let's not ignore the cause of the problem.

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Edward Low's avatar

two/ii

In general.. I think prisons are an example of the difference between republicans and people who think...

ª it is an illegal strike...


. . . ° it is weird to see republicans suddenly caring about unions and health insurance
. . . ° it is an illegal strike
. . . ° as usually republicans seem to side with the criminals, if they are law enforcement
. . . ° if the you are a Correction Officer and you are worried about staffing, and you are illegally leaving your fellow co-workers even more understaff.. I guess you have an optics problem.. if not a cognitive dissonance to reality
. . . ° as the Ms. Feieneisel story points out, the national guard are professionals and treat the prisoners as humans, and the prisoners respond well with the positive treatment.


. . . ° one of the problems all law enforcement has: if you want people to believe you are good and professional, in general, then when there is a bad officer... you don't side with the bad side.


. . . ° like a bag of apples, if you don't point out and remove the bad apple, quickly the entire bag is rotting

Every thing I have read about solitary confinement = cruel and unusual punishment

"Humankind: A Hopeful History" Rutger Bregman describes how in other country, where the treat prisoners as humans.. they need less of everything, including razor wire topped walls to hold the prisoners in, because people respond well to humane treatment.

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Byron's avatar

I was returning from snowshoing on Lyon Mountain and decided to return through Dannemora last week. I thought all the trucks lining one side of the street were because of snow removal, until I got to the prison. I have never served in corrections, but know several that did from my National Guard unit. They would share how they or their colleagues had swapped time off in order to get the entire hunting season off. By trading shifts with other officers and working double shifts for a month or so, they would have that officer cover their shift during hunting season. To me, it always seemed risky, since you're still scheduled to work when another officer may not be able to show up for you for one reason or another. I only knew they were making much better money than I was in DMNA, but the work conditions never tempted me to apply. Staffing and pay have always been at the center of union demands in the past. That's likely the same here. When facilities are closed, they turn areas into Pennsylvania steel towns. Lyon Mountain, Gabriels and Chateuaguay (sold in 2018 for $600K) Correctional Facilities are idle buildings just crumbling into disrepair. The closed convenience stations and restaurants nearby are too. Chateuaguay sold to a Jewish group from the Montreal area for a summer camp. Having driven by it a few times now and then, there hasn't been much going on there 6 years later. I doubt the YMCA would be interested in any corrections properties like they are with NG armories. They're built for a singular use.

The closest my daughter and I got to Mardi Gras was walking through the float storage warehouse. I love that city.

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Edward Low's avatar

You bring up several points that have been in the back of my mind.

Many people (from nurses law enforcement) work long shifts for different reasons, but I always think... wait doesn't your job require you to be alert at all times ????

The added thing about the Correction Officers doing these swap outs... If I remember correctly... those two worked the extra shifts then got overtime AND a little extra pay from the CO who went hunting..

Those empty facilities.. would be great housing (with some refinements) for the many workers that come to the resort areas to do season work..

In the early 90's I was talking to several CO's and they were complaining about forced overtime (not the overtime that they swapped for) and one said: "How would you like to be forced to work over for only $25 an hour."

Now imagine, my job was salary, so I never worked less than 45 hours a week.. but always paid for 40 AND I was making minimum wage of $7.50 an hour..

I didn't know how to respond.. because frankly the prospect making three times what I WAS making sounded pretty damn good.

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Ken Tingley's avatar

My wife worked at Albany Med for years where the nurses worked 12-hour shifts. I always thought this was incredibly dangerous. Studies show that once you work beyond 10 hours you are not as effective in your job.

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Edward Low's avatar

Yes.. I have read many books on sleep... and basically working that kind of shift means.. the last four hours... it is like you had a couple cocktails..

... next time people are going to the ER, they might want to ask the nurse how long they have been working.....

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Barbara Green's avatar

I truly fear where our country is headed. Last night’s address by Trump is very unsettling, especially when there are so many in government that laud him like the king he thinks he is. How bad will it have to get before something is done to stop him?

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Ken Tingley's avatar

More importantly when half of what he says is untrue. Probably more than half.

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Barbara Green's avatar

…and the prison system seems to be bad for the prisoners and the workers. All the governor seems worried about is the cost.

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Ken Tingley's avatar

Well, she should be and I do suspect that fixing the Corrections Department would take lots of money and a whole different mindset.

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Don Shuler's avatar

Thanks, Ken. So much to absorb!

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bernice mennis's avatar

Perfect statement by Musk...He and Trump always projecting, reversing good and bad. Just heard that the person appointed to be in the DOJ will start impeachment procedures for Biden who, according to him, committed totally illegal acts in office. Clearly Musk and Trump should be impeached for destroying our democrcy.

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bernice mennis's avatar

There was a large gathering of Indivisible and 50/51 protesting/resisting the Coup by Trump. Vance, and Musk in Albany on Tuesday.. Wonderful energy, creative strong signs....and anger at what is happening. Around the corner, where we were supposed to march, the striking Correctional Officers had gathered, Dan Stec was speaking in support.. I always want fair wages and good working conditions for all workers. But I felt how diifferent our two gatherings were--what we were each fighting for .

I taught at Comstock/Great Meadows for 12 years, teaching literature and writing for Skidmore College. It was a rich and deep program. Those who went through the college program rarely returned to prison after release/ Programs that nourished thinking, that enabled students to feel their own dignity and worth, really "rehabilitate." --I was incredibly inspired by my students, the depth and honesty of their writing and their discussion of books...and ideas...their sharing on all levels in class. I gathered together their writings and my experiences in the prison in a book:"Breaking Out of Prison; A Guide to Consciousness, Compassion, and Freedom" and dedicated the book to my students who were my teachers" because they were my teachers. I think of their poetry, their memoir writings, their essays exploring and analyzing, their growth. I think how often they would say "Now I see," and think how important education is, the learning of skills, the sense of one's own possibilities. And I think how many programs were stopped...and how much we could do rather than restrain and constrict , punish and judge. I think of both the men incarcerated and the correctional officer and what really enables people to grow and learn and respect both themselves and others..

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