Just finished a lousy sports book titled “win at all costs” about Nike. Wasn’t that also the story of Charlie Hustle (Charlie Hustler?)? A great player but abusive on and off the field. Even in his dotage weird: during his autograph sessions, offering to add - for an extra fee - an apology for gambling.
Recently Making sexual taunts to the wife of a nationally known sports announcer. Just too much.
I grew up in Cincinnati and am still a fan. Long-suffering at this point. Why not put it down to Charlie Hustle's betting on a Reds game (or more) while he managed the team? That bad deal the Red Sox made with the Yankees was for decades blamed as the cause of the long Red Sox post season drought.
I can't agree with you on Rose's final baseball resting place in the Hall of Fame. He cheated. You say he still lied to his last days if it served his purpose. Oddly enough, we currently have a presidential campaign in which one of the candidates lies as often as he breathes.
No, he cheated and the players who made hay by taking steroids cheated. Should he be recognized for getting everything out of his talent all he could? You bet. His stats were and remain enormous. His ambition was to be the highest paid singles hitter. Okay. He got paid so very well for his on the field exploits.
But there are some people who are very talented, like Rose, and you love the work they do. But as human beings? They're miserable. I love listening to Sinatra. That man had a terrific voice and knew exactly how to phrase the lyrics and I've always watched him. But like Rose, a nasty piece of work in real life. So, you recognize the gift as displayed, you praise it, and you are relieved when you know that they were pretty mean human beings and you're grateful you were never in their crosshairs.
I once ran into him at the Saratoga track, asked for an autograph, and was brusquely dismissed. Not for that reason, but I was with you in being in the keep the ban camp. Your piece today is compelling and I agree with you. The distance we now have from his baseball transgressions, and the way times have changed, say it's time to recognize his remarkable on-field accomplishments.
Heck, we forgive Trump for all his transgressions. At one time Trump would never have been considered for the highest office in the land. And now Rose. Sorry. Their legacy on and off the field should be considered. I would be a hard "no". Where exactly do we draw the line?
Thanks Ken. If baseball and for that matter professional sports had not partnered with and promoted betting I can understand banning for life means just that. The hypocrisy you pointed out is literally in our faces on television these days. So, I think we can forgive Rose and focus on his baseball ’creds.’
Apparently baseball has had no problems overlooking, ignoring other more troubling behaviors from others who did not even come close to what Rose accomplished in baseball.
And that could be said for every single professional "sport" - NOT a fan! The money - the influence - the "stardom". Well, quite honestly, that almost sounds like our politics!
Appreciated your article and take on Pete Rose. Great player, no doubt, but I still have mixed feelings about his induction into the Hall of Fame. You make some good points.
We lived for 30 years in Ohio up river from Cincinnati (Marietta). Our family became avid Reds fans. (I even gave up my Cubs for the REDS. Also, I have been a RED Sox fan for 79 years. I even bleed RED :)
Our kids’ first major league game was at the then new Riverfront Park. A memorable family night. Last sumner, son Tim and I drove down to NYC for a Reds/Mets game. This spring, while visiting in Marietta, we took in a Reds’ game.
Even when my teams don’t make the playoffs, I still follow the season right through the Series. For the love of the game! Usually pick a couple of other teams to root for.
Go Mets! Go Tigers! Let’s have a dark horse World Series!
Also, I have seen games in 12 MLB ballparks, including Fenway many, many times, when I was a graduate student in the Boston area. Bleacher seats cost 75 cents. The bleacher section could get quite rowdy, so if Meg went with me we would sit in the grandstands for $2.50 @. A real splurge. We were living on a shoestring. (Perspective: our one room apartment with hideaway bed, bath, and kitchenette cost $50 per month including utilities).
I've always been one of Rose's biggest critics. He was not only a jerk and an a**hole (hardly the only man in baseball history with this flaw) but he always acted like he was bigger than the game and that rules shouldn't have to apply to his grand self. He also never once apologized for what he did and was constantly acting like the victim, a MAGA before his time. I am glad he never received the induction honor in his lifetime but I think I'd okay with him receiving it posthumously. Unfortunately, gambling has pervaded every crevice of the game today and society more broadly. Seems harder to justify his continued exclusion.
But it does raise the question of where you draw the line. Among the qualifications for being inducted into the HOF is a character clause. It seems to be applied to some but not others. Not only Rose (who was de facto convicted) but also Bonds, McGuire and Clemens who never were. Equally scumbaggy individuals have been inducted the the sages ands scribes. Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were banned from the game for a few years for working at a (legal) casino but Ohtani remains active. Seems like the character clause is only applied when convenient.
I loathed Rose as a person but some of his critics here ought to bear in mind this. Specifically, those complaining that he charged for autographs and was a "hustler" always trying to cash in on his name. Most ex-players can make a decent living in their post-playing career by being a manager or coach at the professional level or broadcaster or other media pundit. Rose was completely blackballed from the game, admittedly through his own fault. He had to make a living somehow.
Times certainly have changed! I still remember attending the 1982 All-Star Game in Montreal. A friend and I decided on a whim to drive from Plattsburgh and try our luck with scalpers. To our surprise, we managed to snag tickets in row T of the highest tier for a reasonable $18 each. We joked that we were so far from the field, that even though we were sitting next to each other, he was behind home plate and I was behind third base. The pre-game festivities were minimal, just the national anthem and a few announcements.
For me, it was an exciting opportunity to see American League stars who rarely played in Montreal, even if from a distance. I don't recall being particularly shocked by the prices of food or drinks, which were likely much more affordable than they are today.
I'm the same age as Pete Rose and a long time Reds fan. What Pete did was wrong ,but in my opinion not something that should have kept him out of the Hall.
nice column about Rose's legacy and your change of heart, Ken!
Nope. If Pete had shown even one scintilla of remorse or contrition, maybe. He was a man of and for himself. Hard man made a hard bed to lie in.
I certainly can respect that opinion because it is true, but boy, the guy could hit.
Like few others before or since.
Yessss!
Just finished a lousy sports book titled “win at all costs” about Nike. Wasn’t that also the story of Charlie Hustle (Charlie Hustler?)? A great player but abusive on and off the field. Even in his dotage weird: during his autograph sessions, offering to add - for an extra fee - an apology for gambling.
Recently Making sexual taunts to the wife of a nationally known sports announcer. Just too much.
And let's not forget his transgression with a "16 year old" while he was married and in his 30's. Age of consent in Ohio is 16, but come on.
I grew up in Cincinnati and am still a fan. Long-suffering at this point. Why not put it down to Charlie Hustle's betting on a Reds game (or more) while he managed the team? That bad deal the Red Sox made with the Yankees was for decades blamed as the cause of the long Red Sox post season drought.
I can't agree with you on Rose's final baseball resting place in the Hall of Fame. He cheated. You say he still lied to his last days if it served his purpose. Oddly enough, we currently have a presidential campaign in which one of the candidates lies as often as he breathes.
No, he cheated and the players who made hay by taking steroids cheated. Should he be recognized for getting everything out of his talent all he could? You bet. His stats were and remain enormous. His ambition was to be the highest paid singles hitter. Okay. He got paid so very well for his on the field exploits.
But there are some people who are very talented, like Rose, and you love the work they do. But as human beings? They're miserable. I love listening to Sinatra. That man had a terrific voice and knew exactly how to phrase the lyrics and I've always watched him. But like Rose, a nasty piece of work in real life. So, you recognize the gift as displayed, you praise it, and you are relieved when you know that they were pretty mean human beings and you're grateful you were never in their crosshairs.
As I said earlier, but boy the guy could play.
And then some. Head first all the way.
I once ran into him at the Saratoga track, asked for an autograph, and was brusquely dismissed. Not for that reason, but I was with you in being in the keep the ban camp. Your piece today is compelling and I agree with you. The distance we now have from his baseball transgressions, and the way times have changed, say it's time to recognize his remarkable on-field accomplishments.
Heck, we forgive Trump for all his transgressions. At one time Trump would never have been considered for the highest office in the land. And now Rose. Sorry. Their legacy on and off the field should be considered. I would be a hard "no". Where exactly do we draw the line?
Thanks Ken. If baseball and for that matter professional sports had not partnered with and promoted betting I can understand banning for life means just that. The hypocrisy you pointed out is literally in our faces on television these days. So, I think we can forgive Rose and focus on his baseball ’creds.’
Apparently baseball has had no problems overlooking, ignoring other more troubling behaviors from others who did not even come close to what Rose accomplished in baseball.
And that could be said for every single professional "sport" - NOT a fan! The money - the influence - the "stardom". Well, quite honestly, that almost sounds like our politics!
This is worth reading for a laugh right now! Probably this is many Canadian's opinion of us.
https://www.durhamregion.com/opinion/columnists/america-have-you-lost-your-mind/article_d2c0dd7f-232e-52aa-8e4d-ed8faaea190a.html#:~:text=America:%20Have%20you%20lost%20your%20mind?%20-
Appreciated your article and take on Pete Rose. Great player, no doubt, but I still have mixed feelings about his induction into the Hall of Fame. You make some good points.
We lived for 30 years in Ohio up river from Cincinnati (Marietta). Our family became avid Reds fans. (I even gave up my Cubs for the REDS. Also, I have been a RED Sox fan for 79 years. I even bleed RED :)
Our kids’ first major league game was at the then new Riverfront Park. A memorable family night. Last sumner, son Tim and I drove down to NYC for a Reds/Mets game. This spring, while visiting in Marietta, we took in a Reds’ game.
Now, we are already waiting for next year!!!
The one thing that does not change - mostly - is the beauty of the game.
Right on!
Even when my teams don’t make the playoffs, I still follow the season right through the Series. For the love of the game! Usually pick a couple of other teams to root for.
Go Mets! Go Tigers! Let’s have a dark horse World Series!
Don, Have you ever been to Cooperstown?
Oh, yes!
One of my favorite places in the world.
Also, I have seen games in 12 MLB ballparks, including Fenway many, many times, when I was a graduate student in the Boston area. Bleacher seats cost 75 cents. The bleacher section could get quite rowdy, so if Meg went with me we would sit in the grandstands for $2.50 @. A real splurge. We were living on a shoestring. (Perspective: our one room apartment with hideaway bed, bath, and kitchenette cost $50 per month including utilities).
I've always been one of Rose's biggest critics. He was not only a jerk and an a**hole (hardly the only man in baseball history with this flaw) but he always acted like he was bigger than the game and that rules shouldn't have to apply to his grand self. He also never once apologized for what he did and was constantly acting like the victim, a MAGA before his time. I am glad he never received the induction honor in his lifetime but I think I'd okay with him receiving it posthumously. Unfortunately, gambling has pervaded every crevice of the game today and society more broadly. Seems harder to justify his continued exclusion.
But it does raise the question of where you draw the line. Among the qualifications for being inducted into the HOF is a character clause. It seems to be applied to some but not others. Not only Rose (who was de facto convicted) but also Bonds, McGuire and Clemens who never were. Equally scumbaggy individuals have been inducted the the sages ands scribes. Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were banned from the game for a few years for working at a (legal) casino but Ohtani remains active. Seems like the character clause is only applied when convenient.
I loathed Rose as a person but some of his critics here ought to bear in mind this. Specifically, those complaining that he charged for autographs and was a "hustler" always trying to cash in on his name. Most ex-players can make a decent living in their post-playing career by being a manager or coach at the professional level or broadcaster or other media pundit. Rose was completely blackballed from the game, admittedly through his own fault. He had to make a living somehow.
Although, he was the highest paid player in the game at one point.... I guess where that gambling problem comes in.
Times certainly have changed! I still remember attending the 1982 All-Star Game in Montreal. A friend and I decided on a whim to drive from Plattsburgh and try our luck with scalpers. To our surprise, we managed to snag tickets in row T of the highest tier for a reasonable $18 each. We joked that we were so far from the field, that even though we were sitting next to each other, he was behind home plate and I was behind third base. The pre-game festivities were minimal, just the national anthem and a few announcements.
For me, it was an exciting opportunity to see American League stars who rarely played in Montreal, even if from a distance. I don't recall being particularly shocked by the prices of food or drinks, which were likely much more affordable than they are today.
I'm the same age as Pete Rose and a long time Reds fan. What Pete did was wrong ,but in my opinion not something that should have kept him out of the Hall.
I always thought that the criteria for the Hall of Fame was one's greatness in playing the game.
Yet, Joe Jackson remains out as well.
Yes, he fixed games which is a whole other story.
I agreed with you totally.