I agrée with your comments on war. Let’s include a discussion on the purpose and outcome of The Civil War also known as War between the States or the Rebellion or the War fir Southern Independence…. Sigh
I think "bothsideism" isn't out of place when there are in fact, both sides. True believers on either "side" work hard to silence anyone not on their "side". We see this in the abortion debate, as well, I think. Of course Hamas "started it" (the current conflict) , and of course it as an unconscionable terrorist attack and of course Israel has a right to defend itself. And, of course, it is a war crime to target civilians and it is expected that military operations try to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. So, of course, that should be front and center in the analysis, as well, even if is true that the US has failed in this account in our own wars. And, while I think it is repugnant to bring up in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attack that the Palestinians also have a just cause in seeking a homeland, we would all be fools to think that it is not a huge factor in the conflict.. Former President Obama had some nuanced thoughts on this crisis, though, like all of us, no answers. But we will never find answers if we all just pick a side. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/us/politics/obama-israel-palestine.html
Throughout my lifetime I’m 72), the Palestinians have had so many opportunities to accept a two state solution brokered by neighboring states. Instead they continually attacked Israel, and Israel defends itself, takes land for buffer zones, and for peace, returns the same land, and their peace is again broken. Do you remember before Israel won Jerusalem defending its lesser borders, that Christian’s nor Jews, nor any religion but Islam could visit? If you read the Sykes/Pico and Balfour Agreement and review where most Palestinians lived, (and still do), it was transJordan… Mountbatten gave Jordan to great grandfather King Husain rather than the Palestinians. Do you know how many tens of thousands of Jews were forced to flee from their centuries owned lands in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc in the 20th century? Yes it would be ideal to have a League of Nations or United Nations who were unbiased and had a moral center, however we don’t. How would you react if barbaric terrorists came to Glens Falls and decapitated, raped, burned and kidnapped your neighbors and loved ones while dancing for peace, or sleeping? I would love a perfect world where we could all sing kumbaya, but look what happened to the families who worked so hard for peace? 1400 are dead and 240+ are now hostages! Thank you Ken for reminding us that we are dealing with terrorists, subhuman, coldblooded killers and torturers groomed to hate.
I think this is exactly my point. I'm horrified by the murdered Israelis in the terrorist attack and equally horrified by the dead civilians in Gaza. I can feel both without choosing one over the other. I refuse to believe we can't try and protect the innocents on both sides of this conflict. Emphasis on try.
War does not defeat terrorism. There is no final bullet or bomb. The opposition to military action is based in that simple realization and fact.
Terrorism is a crime and must be dealt with as a crime. In this case it is an international crime and must be dealt with internationally in order to hold the guilty accountable and prevent massive loss of innocent life which is in itself a war crime. The whole point of terrorism is to create an uncontrolled spiral of violence.
There is no international organization to hold Hamas accountable. Perhaps there should be. Perhaps this episode will spur the creation of such an organization, with actual police powers. I doubt it. Regardless, the desire for such as system does nothing to help Israel now.
There is an international organization to hold Hama accountable, the International Criminal Court (ICC) established in 1998. Unfortunately 7 nations did not sign the charter, Iraq, Libya, Qatar, Yemen, and pertinent to the current discussion - Israel and the US.
We did not sign on to the ICC because we did not want other nations to hold us (or Israel) accountable for, well, for war crimes. It would look very bad for us to have George W Bush in court over the torture memo he signed, CIA black sites, Guantanamo, and numerous war crimes perpetrated in the name of (among other things) The War On Terror.
But you are correct that the ICC does not have police powers.
We do have international willingness to find peaceful resolution to this specific and to ongoing conflict. The difficulty for us is that such a conference would necessarily include nations and groups that we oppose or do not recognize or likely won’t want to participate. Which is why we need nations such as China, India to participate. In such a set of talks a wide range of difficult issues will be brought up. It would be very hard - much harder than dropping bombs and shooting guns. The end game would be to for the Palestinians, Iran, Qatar, or any other nation with ability to capture Hamas leaders would seize them for trial in a court of law, and there would be resolution or a plan toward resolution of various tensions between international actors that have lead to the terrorism we are seeing.
I know, I know, people will say that won’t happen. But it is the only just resolution.
The other option follows the spirit if not actual fact of Alexander the Great’s Siege of Gaza which ended in every adult male resident slaughtered, the women and children being sold into slavery.
That is not reality. The reality is very complicated but includes that since 1948 there has been no concerted effort to resolve the legitimate issues of all parties in Palestine after the colonial power collapsed and in that collapse established a new political entity in the lands of Palestine. Reality also includes the fact that roughly 1 million human beings 18 years old or less, children, exist in the space where neither entity involved in fighting has allowed them a say in the governance of their only home.
The reality is that the whole situation is a crime and allowing it to go forward as things are going is inhuman.
But I also understand other realities. As someone born in Afghanistan I am very much aware that President Trump signed what amounts to a surrender to what we consider a terrorist group, the Taliban, in order to extract ourselves from a war we created. Millions of innocent people there have been plunged into a level of poverty that is inhuman.
So, yes, I understand inhumanity in a way I hope you can’t comprehend.
Mike, George W Bush become the president in 2001. If the U.S. failed to sign the ICC charter in 1998, then when you write (“We did not sign on to the ICC because we did not want other nations to hold us (or Israel) accountable for, well, for war crimes. It would look very bad for us to have George W Bush in court over the torture memo he signed, CIA black sites, Guantanamo, and numerous war crimes perpetrated in the name of (among other things) The War On Terror.”), you link the decision not to sign the treaty to an event yet to happen. That would be like someone knowing to invest in Microsoft stock before Bill Gates was even born. A time line event not possible in the physical world human events.
You are so right! No one is questioning Russian casualties as they were the aggressor and Ukraine has the right to retaliate. As you mentioned, it is Israel’s right to protect itself and its people from barbaric terrorists! Israel is the only defender who warns before it strikes! Thank you for reminding people to use their moral and humane compass!! 💙🤍💙🤍🙌🏻
I blame Netanyahu. He is so consumed with having absolute power he forgot about security? We give them massive military assistance so it's incomprehensible that they were not alerted to this attack. All surveillance went quiet...did they not get suspicious? Was it deliberate to allow this attack?
Agreed. People forget what we have (rightly) done in the past to defend and protect. War is most unfortunate---it's not pretty, comfortable, or even moral in some regards...but terrorists cannot be allowed to run the show. Are there better options? Sure. Bit all parties need to participate in good faith.
Perhaps if there had been more concern for civilians when the US was bombing them in our last two seemingly unending wars, more people would have empathy for the thousands of civilians who are being killed now. Choosing to only see civilians on one side of the conflict as fully human is part of the problem we have had in wars. We can reject the idea of displacing and killing Palestinians, half of whom are children, after decades of treating them as second class citizens because of the far-right Israeli government who refuses to treat them fairly while still decrying the horrific attacks on Israeli citizens who were killed and captured (and are still being held). I find it surprising that you would choose one side as justified and would try to compare it to WWII. It was not justified for the US to use atomic bombs on the Japanese either. Historically demonizing a specific group led to horrors like the Holocaust. The US started a completely unjustified war in Iraq that lasted doe two decades and definitely did not make the world a safer place. Demonizing all Palestinians because of the actions of a terrorist attack will not make the world safer.Let’s try to look civilians on either side as humans who do not deserve this.
I agrée with your comments on war. Let’s include a discussion on the purpose and outcome of The Civil War also known as War between the States or the Rebellion or the War fir Southern Independence…. Sigh
Gloria Ragonetti
Ken- Thank you for this.
I think "bothsideism" isn't out of place when there are in fact, both sides. True believers on either "side" work hard to silence anyone not on their "side". We see this in the abortion debate, as well, I think. Of course Hamas "started it" (the current conflict) , and of course it as an unconscionable terrorist attack and of course Israel has a right to defend itself. And, of course, it is a war crime to target civilians and it is expected that military operations try to avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. So, of course, that should be front and center in the analysis, as well, even if is true that the US has failed in this account in our own wars. And, while I think it is repugnant to bring up in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attack that the Palestinians also have a just cause in seeking a homeland, we would all be fools to think that it is not a huge factor in the conflict.. Former President Obama had some nuanced thoughts on this crisis, though, like all of us, no answers. But we will never find answers if we all just pick a side. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/us/politics/obama-israel-palestine.html
Throughout my lifetime I’m 72), the Palestinians have had so many opportunities to accept a two state solution brokered by neighboring states. Instead they continually attacked Israel, and Israel defends itself, takes land for buffer zones, and for peace, returns the same land, and their peace is again broken. Do you remember before Israel won Jerusalem defending its lesser borders, that Christian’s nor Jews, nor any religion but Islam could visit? If you read the Sykes/Pico and Balfour Agreement and review where most Palestinians lived, (and still do), it was transJordan… Mountbatten gave Jordan to great grandfather King Husain rather than the Palestinians. Do you know how many tens of thousands of Jews were forced to flee from their centuries owned lands in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc in the 20th century? Yes it would be ideal to have a League of Nations or United Nations who were unbiased and had a moral center, however we don’t. How would you react if barbaric terrorists came to Glens Falls and decapitated, raped, burned and kidnapped your neighbors and loved ones while dancing for peace, or sleeping? I would love a perfect world where we could all sing kumbaya, but look what happened to the families who worked so hard for peace? 1400 are dead and 240+ are now hostages! Thank you Ken for reminding us that we are dealing with terrorists, subhuman, coldblooded killers and torturers groomed to hate.
I think this is exactly my point. I'm horrified by the murdered Israelis in the terrorist attack and equally horrified by the dead civilians in Gaza. I can feel both without choosing one over the other. I refuse to believe we can't try and protect the innocents on both sides of this conflict. Emphasis on try.
Gotta agree. Hamas is nothing but a terrorist group. It's extremely sad that civilians have to pay the price.
War does not defeat terrorism. There is no final bullet or bomb. The opposition to military action is based in that simple realization and fact.
Terrorism is a crime and must be dealt with as a crime. In this case it is an international crime and must be dealt with internationally in order to hold the guilty accountable and prevent massive loss of innocent life which is in itself a war crime. The whole point of terrorism is to create an uncontrolled spiral of violence.
We do not need to play the terrorists game.
There is no international organization to hold Hamas accountable. Perhaps there should be. Perhaps this episode will spur the creation of such an organization, with actual police powers. I doubt it. Regardless, the desire for such as system does nothing to help Israel now.
There is an international organization to hold Hama accountable, the International Criminal Court (ICC) established in 1998. Unfortunately 7 nations did not sign the charter, Iraq, Libya, Qatar, Yemen, and pertinent to the current discussion - Israel and the US.
We did not sign on to the ICC because we did not want other nations to hold us (or Israel) accountable for, well, for war crimes. It would look very bad for us to have George W Bush in court over the torture memo he signed, CIA black sites, Guantanamo, and numerous war crimes perpetrated in the name of (among other things) The War On Terror.
But you are correct that the ICC does not have police powers.
We do have international willingness to find peaceful resolution to this specific and to ongoing conflict. The difficulty for us is that such a conference would necessarily include nations and groups that we oppose or do not recognize or likely won’t want to participate. Which is why we need nations such as China, India to participate. In such a set of talks a wide range of difficult issues will be brought up. It would be very hard - much harder than dropping bombs and shooting guns. The end game would be to for the Palestinians, Iran, Qatar, or any other nation with ability to capture Hamas leaders would seize them for trial in a court of law, and there would be resolution or a plan toward resolution of various tensions between international actors that have lead to the terrorism we are seeing.
I know, I know, people will say that won’t happen. But it is the only just resolution.
The other option follows the spirit if not actual fact of Alexander the Great’s Siege of Gaza which ended in every adult male resident slaughtered, the women and children being sold into slavery.
Well, I don’t know where “here” is to you, so I don’t know about your idealism, but what I proposed is the only real solution.
That is not reality. The reality is very complicated but includes that since 1948 there has been no concerted effort to resolve the legitimate issues of all parties in Palestine after the colonial power collapsed and in that collapse established a new political entity in the lands of Palestine. Reality also includes the fact that roughly 1 million human beings 18 years old or less, children, exist in the space where neither entity involved in fighting has allowed them a say in the governance of their only home.
The reality is that the whole situation is a crime and allowing it to go forward as things are going is inhuman.
But I also understand other realities. As someone born in Afghanistan I am very much aware that President Trump signed what amounts to a surrender to what we consider a terrorist group, the Taliban, in order to extract ourselves from a war we created. Millions of innocent people there have been plunged into a level of poverty that is inhuman.
So, yes, I understand inhumanity in a way I hope you can’t comprehend.
Mike, George W Bush become the president in 2001. If the U.S. failed to sign the ICC charter in 1998, then when you write (“We did not sign on to the ICC because we did not want other nations to hold us (or Israel) accountable for, well, for war crimes. It would look very bad for us to have George W Bush in court over the torture memo he signed, CIA black sites, Guantanamo, and numerous war crimes perpetrated in the name of (among other things) The War On Terror.”), you link the decision not to sign the treaty to an event yet to happen. That would be like someone knowing to invest in Microsoft stock before Bill Gates was even born. A time line event not possible in the physical world human events.
No.
GWB was an example of what could happen, not a deciding factor in policy.
Your response gives me insight into why you misunderstand so much.
Mike,……………..hum? What could happen? So, did it happen or not happen?
Thank you Will. Well said
You are so right! No one is questioning Russian casualties as they were the aggressor and Ukraine has the right to retaliate. As you mentioned, it is Israel’s right to protect itself and its people from barbaric terrorists! Israel is the only defender who warns before it strikes! Thank you for reminding people to use their moral and humane compass!! 💙🤍💙🤍🙌🏻
Violence breeds violence. War breeds war. Love breeds love. Unfortunately, of the latter “there is too little of.”
I blame Netanyahu. He is so consumed with having absolute power he forgot about security? We give them massive military assistance so it's incomprehensible that they were not alerted to this attack. All surveillance went quiet...did they not get suspicious? Was it deliberate to allow this attack?
Agreed. People forget what we have (rightly) done in the past to defend and protect. War is most unfortunate---it's not pretty, comfortable, or even moral in some regards...but terrorists cannot be allowed to run the show. Are there better options? Sure. Bit all parties need to participate in good faith.
Perhaps if there had been more concern for civilians when the US was bombing them in our last two seemingly unending wars, more people would have empathy for the thousands of civilians who are being killed now. Choosing to only see civilians on one side of the conflict as fully human is part of the problem we have had in wars. We can reject the idea of displacing and killing Palestinians, half of whom are children, after decades of treating them as second class citizens because of the far-right Israeli government who refuses to treat them fairly while still decrying the horrific attacks on Israeli citizens who were killed and captured (and are still being held). I find it surprising that you would choose one side as justified and would try to compare it to WWII. It was not justified for the US to use atomic bombs on the Japanese either. Historically demonizing a specific group led to horrors like the Holocaust. The US started a completely unjustified war in Iraq that lasted doe two decades and definitely did not make the world a safer place. Demonizing all Palestinians because of the actions of a terrorist attack will not make the world safer.Let’s try to look civilians on either side as humans who do not deserve this.
I agree, Will. No war is ever “glorious “. Civilians and young soldiers are gut wrenching casualties on both sides.